Realism: what are we aiming for?


  • Founders

    Hi, I'm coping with my hype for the start of the Forge by fantasizing about what the final game will see added over the course of the first months, and I have a couple of questions and a couple of suggestions, and I'd like your input.

    I've always loved realism in games, and when I played Deus Ex I also got to appreciate the "realistic" damage system it had. The only other game with a great damage and heal system was Metal Gear Solid 3. but then the years passed, graphics got a million times better, but actual core mechanics suffered greatly, and I rarely ever saw another game with interesting health mechanics.

    An issue I've always had with videogames is that there are a million times when they break realism just to respect a canon. For example, health kits are stupid: if I cut my finger it'll hurt for a week, not just until the moment I strap a band aid on it. Same way if you get shot in the leg, you can't just inject yourself with epinephrine or adrenaline and walk it off.
    There are a lot of different ways to get different kinds of hurt, and a lot of different ways to treat the wounds. some more effective than others. In real life if I stub my toe I don't loose 5 hps, I have physics ruin my day.
    I'll get to the point: what I'd really, really like, would be to have a game in which I can get hurt in a myriad of ways, and in which I had a lot of different options to treat my wounds that will give me different results. I'd like to be able to use duct tape to temporarily stop a hemorrhage in my leg, knowing that with each limping step a little more blood leaks through it making it less and less effective. at the same way, getting shot in the arm would make you flinch each time you try to aim or shoot. and all of this wouldn't disappear just because you apply a bandage: you'd have pain every moment, unless you also took pain relief medication. pain mechanics would add incredible depth to the health system; having to deal with camera shake, blurred or double vision or even closing eyes would make each shot matter, and avoid the pitiful scenario you can see in practically every game when a player gets downed, then rez'd by his teammate who also gifts him with a "Big medikit", so he can wrap a bandage around his arm for 15 seconds and get back at full health. I find it frustrating to inflict 500% the max hp to someone just because they can play in cover and heal every time I manage to hit them not fatally, and it's the reason because in every game whoever can aim will play snipers and aim for headshots.
    I'd find it extremely cool, too, to use my belt as a tourniquet to stop my blood from oozing of my stump blown up limb.

    surviving in this states while extracting via drone to salvage what we have would probably be the most intense gameplay of any current online FPS, and citizens who manage to survive the extractions could have their wounds instantly healed, leaving scars as trophies of their adventure and brush with death (while death would actually reset them).

    I've read about the layering systems Mavericks engine will have, and I though that it might be a chance to try something more than the usual simple collisions made with blocky polyhedric hitboxes roughly the same shape of the characters.
    It'd take a bit more processing power, but you guys already said that the most of the processing power will be done on your servers anyway, so it'd be doable for a large audience, part of which won't be playing the game on high end last generation computers. Of course over the years this system could be refined even more with accurate anatomy, so bullets could even hit bones, veins or arteries, doing different kinds of damage.

    this could apply to clothes, too, and how different materials would react to different kinds of damage, as well as how they get dirty with mud and blood. for example: a shirt would get soaked and the cloth would show huge stains, while a leather jacket would probably just have a bit dripping from the hole, and most of the blood would remain underneath, dripping to soak the pants.

    in conclusion: it's 3 a.m and I probably butchered english writing this post, but I'd like to discuss ideas regarding these mechanics with you, the few people who read this through.


  • Founders

    Have a go at Green Hell. Might be right up your alley. Also, some of this stuff are in DayZ.


  • Founders

    There are a few clues on the story page.

    Origin of The Isles

    Technological visionaries, computer scientists, and engineers. The unit originally constrained their AI's research to projects for the benefit of humanity, rapidly progressing them towards a sustainable future. In humanity's darkest hour, presented with the possibility of nuclear extinction, they turned their considerable capabilities to a different purpose: controlling the world to ensure its safety. Despite efforts to find a different solution, the islands were deemed the most effective solution for preventing another bloody uprising. Their inhabitants selectively transferred, due to being identified as a threat to stable society.

    My interpretation (and I think mentioned in one of the videos), Mavericks is set in the not-too-distant future. So I am hoping for a little bit of science fiction, but I don't think we'll be seeing laser cannons as weapons. To me this paragraph pitches a technological level just a little bit beyond where we are now.

    A bit further down, we have this one:-

    Justification

    The viewpoint of the employees, who work to manage and detain the citizens of the island do not consider what they're doing as any more immoral than a standard prison. To the employees, they make the world a safer place, containing and managing all the violent, narcissistic and power hungry people. To the islands, they are doing the planet and most of its inhabitants a service. They cover the world's guilt, making these islands a place where nobody can die and do nothing to quench their desire for destruction and conflict. They would argue they do not encourage it.

    The bit that jumps out to me the most is this:

    They cover the world's guilt, making these islands a place where nobody can die"

    I assume, this is the part of the storyline which covers "respawn" mechanics so that there is some rationale for being able to progress a single character through the MMO aspect of the game despite "dying" in BR and other game types.

    I'm imagining medical advancements like cellular reconstruction - being able to repair even fairly serious gunshot wounds.

    The COL faction description also includes:-

    Ideology

    Committed to accession, the COL praise their technological relics as they hack and augment their bodies to dominate and ultimately ascend into the next life.

    So perhaps some aspect of cybernetics or bionics going on. Perhaps "drugs" and "med-kits" could include nano-bot type technology which would explain how healing can be much more effective and rapid.

    So that kind of covers the storyline behind the type of gameplay we are likely to see. Or at least how the story unfolds in my head, anyway.

    My gut feeling is that it's not going to be quite as realistic as you have outlined. It would be cool to have some of the ideas you have posted. I think it could add an extra dimension to the gameplay if the administration of a bandage / med-kit was faster than in the likes of PUBG but once you are "back on your feet" there are additional side effects which last much longer - perhaps 15 to 30 seconds.

    Doesn't have to be too overcomplicated. Perhaps something like:-

    • Leg damage = 50% reduction in walking and running speeds.
    • Arm/Shoulder damage = Reverse recoil (as you try and aim, the barrel slowly drops as your wounded arm struggles to hold the gun up) + reduced throwing range.
    • Body shot = lesser effects of both the above
    • headshot = blurry vision, ringing in ears.

    Possibly with a stronger effect for 30 seconds, then without medication they wear off a little bit but remain to a much lesser extent until you find some meds / boosters.

    From a gameplay point of view, this opens up extra decisions. Eg. During a long range sniper battle, if you score a non-fatal hit, you know you have maybe 15 seconds where you can change position with a much reduced chance of your opponent scoring a hit on you... Do you try and rush into nade throwing range or just move to a better tree/rock/building?


  • Founders

    yeah, I like your breakdown of the lore, but then again, the island doesn't seem to be described as some sort of amusement park in which people can go and have fun killing each other, but as a prison.
    I'm on board with you about the technology, but I'm pretty sure there will be some sort of teleportation to extract, since we've already been shown customizations teleporting on weapons when they're picked up.
    so, what I'm thinking is that since, as you said, technology isn't that much further from what we have now, they could have bulky advanced equipment, and limited field technology. so: there could be surgical drones to fix the bodies of downed people which get teleported back to base, down to the cellular level (hence no scars), and yeah, maybe some nano-tech gel you could apply to a single wound to fix it.
    That said, I'd still like to see some element of survival gameplay like more rudimental and temporary ways to fix a wound (since tech healt kits would be expensive and highly requested, hence rare to find in the wild). I think that faction bases would stock up on them and use them to fix their members or maybe to sell them to other faction members (at least factions that are friendly or neutral at the moment)

    That said, I'm against temporary debuffs: if the wounds are left untreated the debuffs should have a realistic duration, depending on the treatment. If I jump from too high I might sprain my ankle, and it may hurt for a couple of minutes, but if I break it, applying a splint would only not make it worse. There may be injectable nano-tech to fix bones, and gel to fix flesh wounds.
    with cuts it's more dynamic: blood coagulates, but wounds can reopen with physical strain.


  • Founders

    So many words . . . too lazy to read articles. Someone simplify this please


  • Founders

    @dracas-0001 said in Realism: what are we aiming for?:

    So many words . . . too lazy to read articles. Someone simplify this please

    Basically discussing the plot of the game, how your character can be revived after you lose a BR for instance. And how possibly a limb damage system could work. As in being shot in the foot makes you walk slow and similar. That's the very short version.


  • Founders

    @dracas-0001 said in Realism: what are we aiming for?:

    So many words . . . too lazy to read articles. Someone simplify this please

    I'm going to find you in The Forge, and shoot you in the head... You'll probably bleed-out and die! 😛


  • Founders

    Another question I haven't seen answered is: will we be able to see our body looking down, like for example in Prey, or will it be the usual "can see my arms and weapon and nothing else" like the vast majority of FPS?


  • Founders

    @gargoyle-0001 "I am a sneaky man." -Ainsely


  • Founders

    I don't know if this has already been discussed: will weapons have realistic recoil patterns and sway? I.E.: RPGs don't fly in a perfectly straight line


  • Founders

    will my character be able to get poison ivy?


  • Founders

    @krumple-0001 said in Realism: what are we aiming for?:

    will my character be able to get poison ivy?

    lol, that would be cool. no health penalty, but your char has to scratch every now and then, compromising your stealth!


  • Founders

    Sneaking through the dense forrest...

    Ow! F***ing midgies!

    The unmistakable sound of a bolt action rifle being cocked...

    Oh shit!